[030] Fundamentals of Successful Sales Operations, with Michael Aronowitz from Teleperformance

Jason: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode. Scalable call center sales podcast. I am super excited. My special guest today is Michael Aronowitz from Teleperformance and he serves as the executive vice president of digital sales, meaning he’s overseeing their global sales line of business, working with some of the world’s best.

[00:00:22] Brands along with many new business disruptors and unicorn companies and so many things that they serve via Teleperformance. Um, he has done so much things. We’re going to talk about a lot of these initiatives he’s put in place what he, what he’s seen for clients at work, what doesn’t work for companies that are struggling in the industry pre pandemic right now, during this pandemic and where things are going, Michael, welcome to the scalable call center sales plan.

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Michael: Jason, thanks for having me looking forward to our conversation today.

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Jason: So one of the things, and I thought I would start here, cause this puts things into perspective for people. If they’re familiar with Teleperformance, they know that it’s a large organization. There’s a lot of people. When I have people come on the show, they fill out a form, they supply some information that becomes the framework of our conversation.

[00:01:14] One of those questions is how big is your sales team, depending on, you know, who’s coming on the podcast. And, you know, since this is a sales call center podcast, that’s a reasonable question. Kind of get a framework for that. You officially have the most people under you as a sales leader in any organization, just for the audience knows how many people.

[00:01:36] Are under your branch in Teleperformance.

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Michael: So when it comes to the sales line of business that we have, uh, 20,000 plus agents worldwide taking inbound, making outbound calls, doing, you know, every type of sales line of business, you can think of whether that’s B2B B to C and just, I can go on and on, you know, chat non-voice.

[00:01:59] So, um, you know, we have a large range of clients and we consider our. You know, the leader in customer acquisition.

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Jason: I love it. So 20,000 people under the sales umbrella of what the company is running and what you’re in charge of, uh, that’s definitely, that’s definitely a new one. And so that obviously comes with the challenges.

[00:02:22] It comes with some successes, it comes with, you know, the, the services that you’re providing for your clients. Right now in what you’re seeing, we’re talking about late 20, 21, what are some of the biggest challenges your seeing that your clients sales teams are struggling with that you’re then helping out with where they’re like, okay, we’re struggling with this and we just need some help.

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Michael: I mean, let’s, let’s throw it out there that the toughest thing right now is. You know, historically, um, you know, call centers have been a great place and a great opportunity for people to start their career. You know, it’s, it’s very common to meet someone at some point in their life. Fortunately, You know, it’s a great job.

[00:03:07] It’s a great opportunity. Um, it’s, it can make a great living, but just like every other business that you come across in, in the U S and other parts of the world, there’s some hiring challenges. So, you know, most of the conversations we have these days are around, um, helping us fill a need and customer acquisition.

[00:03:26] They can’t hire internally, or, you know, they’ve never outsourced before and they’ve, you know, their sales team is the holy grail of their business. And can they put it in someone else’s hands? Know, that’s the number one conversation right now we keep having is having trouble hiring.

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Jason: Do you see a shift in that anytime soon or anything that’s going to affect that positively?

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Michael: No, I’m not. Uh, I’m not here to. Procrastinate or pontificate or come up with different reasons of what I see. I just think over the next six to nine months, we’re not going to really see a big change. You know, the employment’s going to flip all of a sudden it’s wage rates constantly going up and the employment market is shrinking.

[00:04:14] So, you know, there’s some tension in the marketplace. You know, I, I say to people, um, you know, it’s really important not to put all your eggs in one basket and, you know, look at different ways to grow your business, especially on customer acquisition, that’s the lifeline of your business sales. So, um, if you’re outsourcing, you know, look and see if you could, um, bring in another company, if you’ve never outsourced before, it’s time to have that conversation, but either way, you know, Um, you need a great customer acquisition team.

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Jason: Well, and I love what you said about not having all your eggs in one basket, because obviously what we saw was a lot of companies who eggs were all in their internal basket with a team, pandemic happens. Everyone goes through. Some, some of the reps can handle some can’t. Now they’re trying to hire, that’s not working.

[00:05:10] And now what do you do versus being diversified, um, and you know, just covering against any issues, even if there’s internal issues now. Kind of an external option or multiple options. What’s the, what’s the biggest kind of objection you hear. And obviously you’re dealing with big brands, maybe some startups, like I said, in the beginning, you know, some unicorns that are, are, are disrupting, but you know, what is, what is that objection that companies bring up more often than not about.

[00:05:43] Outsourcing or diversifying their sales team. Like you said, trusting someone else to run some of their revenue,

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Michael: you know, it’s trust it’s, Hey, you know, can you do it better than we can internally? And you know, there’s lots of conversations. And the thing I tell people, you know, I’ve been, I’m an old, I’m an old veteran right now when it comes to sales and I’ve been doing this for a long time.

[00:06:05] And there’s a couple of factors that whether you do it internally or whether you outsource it and, you know, picking the right time. Hiring the right people, the most important thing in any organization, whether you’re doing it internally or externally, are you hiring the right people? Are you building the right culture?

[00:06:22] Do you have the right training in place? And you know, where people sometimes drop the ball is that, you know, you’ll find someone that is a great salesperson. Um, on the B2B side, but they’re used to three appointments a day. You know, field sales is kind of moved away. So when you talk to companies who’ve never really done inside sales, they’ve only been field sales and they’ve done two to three appointments a day.

[00:06:45] You know, that rep would get up in the morning. He’d grab some coffee, have his first meeting, maybe have a lunch with someone at the end of the day, bring some donuts and have three. It’s a different atmosphere right now you’re expected to do 5, 6, 7 meetings a day now with interactive video. So finding that right person, they may have been the greatest field sales person in the world, but now you’re in your room, you know, like you and I are doing a video conference.

[00:07:09] So talent is really important. So a lot of these companies, you know, they’ve never done this before, so they’re nervous. The flip side is that when you work with a company like ours or other outsourcers, that we’re taking our success across multiple different lines of business. So we know exactly where the right people are and to hire the right people.

[00:07:31] So, you know, that’s the one thing that we find that’s really common is that, um, how to build a culture, you know, how to recruit the right way, things like that. That’s what we hear mostly.

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Jason: And it’s interesting, you’re talking about that field sales person going inside, like on the telephone and the volume of appointments.

[00:07:53] I think what, what I see a lot, and this is what I already know about your organization and the kind of work that you do is that a lot of companies, I consider them they’re playing sales, right? They think if I hire some salespeople who know what they’re doing, they have the experience and I let them loose.

[00:08:09] They’ll know what they’re doing. My organization and there’ll be successful. Right. And that systems, not processes, not all of these things, like a machine, more like sales sales, just let me do what I do best. I’m a salesperson, right. And an organization that’s run from the top down in that mode. And then you switched to a mode, like what you’re talking about with your company, which is okay, but you’re going to.

[00:08:36] Like a business and a machine with systems and processes, so you can replicate it and you can make sure that it’s successful. How often do you see that, that issue where it’s like, well, you know, we, we don’t need scripts and we don’t have scripts or we don’t even have training. We just have people. Okay.

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Michael: All great questions. And I always go back to data and analytics, right. So, you know, you, you can’t just put sales into one little bucket and say it. Retention is the hardest sell whatsoever. And some people don’t think every touch in a sale, but you’re reselling an existing customer who mobile wants your product.

[00:09:11] Right? And if you don’t use data and analytics behind that, you don’t know why your customers are asking for reasons why that they may no longer want your product. Right? So two things, you said, scripts, not every customer has the same issue in the same problem nor needs the same product. So you can script things out, but who really wants to talk to someone who said.

[00:09:35] Jason, how can I help you? And they read down each line, that’s not selling, that’s not listening. So, you know, you, we use data analytics, coaching, and all these different methodologies to make a sales person better. But I’ll say this number of times throughout our podcast, putting the right person in the right role at the right time is going to be successful in way.

[00:09:58] Often, most times people put the wrong person in there because they want to fill it. And they think they can teach someone sales. Well, we got a great training program. Great. We’ve got a great recruiting program. Great. But you didn’t put the right candidate in there. Right. And so going back to something that we look at is we go with the, no, maybe right.

[00:10:18] If we’re sitting here out a compensation that maybe there’ll be successful, most likely they’re not right. When you look at an NFL draft. Right. And they have to pick 1, 3, 5, 7, they don’t sit around the draft table and go, okay. We think. We think this QB is going to be okay. He might make it. He might not, but you know, let’s take a risk on him.

[00:10:39] You don’t right. So when you use data and analytics and you put these things together, you build great sales program. Right, but you can’t script out someone to overcome an objection. Someone who can listen at the right time of when to close it when not to close more often than not, people never know how to ask for the sale.

[00:11:01] They’re waiting for the customer on the other end, they go, yes, I want it. And we know that doesn’t happen. Right? So long-winded answer, you have to really find the right people and use tools and technologies to make them better and understand what they’re doing. And when they understand that they get better and better.

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Jason: So you’ve been in this a long time. You mentioned you’re a veteran at the, at, at, uh, the sales career. And obviously there’s a lot of people, you see a lot of internal campaigns when you’re talking about people and getting the right people into the role. And I love that. No, maybe rule, right? If it’s a maybe then it’s definitely a no, um, because of what it’s going to take to get that person to be successful.

[00:11:44] If at all, Is there certain things or are there certain things that you’re looking for or, you know, as, as a baseline or is it purely campaign

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Michael: specific if you, if anyone’s ever interviewed. Sometimes they think, you know, this guy is off the wall because what I like to do is I like to throw crazy questions after.

[00:12:05] So I was interviewing Jason in the middle of the COVID interview. I’d say something like this, I’d say, Hey, Jason, I’m going to ask you a series of questions that are meaningless, right. There’s no right or wrong answer. Just, just personally pops in your mind, you know, tell me, and I’d say, Hey, I’m stuck on a desert island for one year.

[00:12:21] You only be able to bring one book with you. What would it be?

[00:12:28] I don’t know. You don’t know. Okay. What about a movie? One movie one year, one movie.

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Jason: Um, I would say what about Bob?

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Michael: What about Bob? Okay, cool. Yeah, it was the last time you turned your phone off

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Jason: a couple of weeks ago when I went four days on a digital detox to the grand canyon.

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Michael: Got it. Got it. And if I was to talk to the last person you reported to, and I said, um, give me one word to describe Jason.

[00:12:55] What would that word be? So, what I did there, right. Is I asked a series of questions to see if you can improvise. Right? How quick can you make decisions on your feet? Are you honest? Right. Was the last time it turned your phone off, you know, last book you started to think, right? These are things that characteristics that you get when you’re working with salespeople that you need.

[00:13:20] Right. And more often than not, we do. Right. We understand testing and all of that, but the inner personalities, the makings of a conversation. So right there, you and I were having a conversation. And if I got first book, I don’t know, last time I turned my phone off, I’m not sure that’s a no. Right. So when you’re really judging talent, you know, we could, we could look at and say, okay, this guy’s got the greatest resume in the world.

[00:13:51] Okay. Let anybody can do a paper resonate. Let’s go see what they have. You know, let’s go, let’s have that. One-on-one real quick and see if they can have a conversation to close.

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Jason: I love it. And I waffled on the book thing because most of the time I read business books, but if I was on a desert island, I don’t know.

[00:14:09] And then the only other book that could pop in my head was jaws, but I don’t think that would be fun on a desert island. Just reading about man-eating sharks. Right. Um, what, uh, when we’re talking about that, cause hiring, I think is so important and not just because there’s a hiring challenge for organizations, but always getting the right people is.

[00:14:26] There, you know, it’s a, it’s a scary game for organization, so you get it right. That’s great. You get it wrong and it’s going to set you back. What are the kind of deal breaker? No, go things that you’re looking for. I know what you said about like, whether they can think on their feet and answer it, but is there a personalities behaviors, like anything where you’re just like this type of person just generally doesn’t work or this.

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Michael: You know, it depends on the type of sale that you’re really looking at. So if, you know, if we’re doing B2B sales, you know, can they do math? You know, and, and why can they do math? Well, if we’re talking business, you know, there’s always a cost per acquisition, you know, what’s the cost per acquisition. Um, what’s the revenue going to be look like what’s the streamline.

[00:15:13] So, you know, math is important on B2B sales. If you’re doing inbound. Call it, you know, a consumer sales, it’s all about the upsell and the cross sell. Right? It’s about listening skills. So, you know, someone buys product a what B and C go along with that. Right. So listening skills. So this goes back to what we said earlier about working with a company like mine, you know, we have.

[00:15:42] Years and years of experience and finding the right person in the right role, where sometimes when a company needs to ramp for seasonality or a new product rollout, they don’t understand the nuances that may come along with that. So it’s really important when you’re building these campaigns, we always create what’s called a sales playbook and in that playbook, it’s.

[00:16:09] We do testing for personalities and see if there’s specific scores. Sometimes you may have to score an 80 or above sometimes a 90 or above, or sometimes a 75 or above for Pacific sales line of business. But that’s the original profile. And as we go on 30, 60, 90 days into this, the profile is fluid and may change.

[00:16:29] And we’ll find out which I have in the past that, you know, a certain personality trait that we thought was right for this. Necessarily might not be moving forward. So creating sales playbooks in always having that back to let’s go back to recruiting and look at the results 30 days, 60 days and 90 days from now.

[00:16:53] And then let’s really have a deeper dive into training. Right? So you’re training your trainers should be able to recognize. Immediately if this person is going to be successful or not. So if they’re not going to be successful in a training, why are we going to spend two weeks trying to train or three weeks, that’s not going to be successful.

[00:17:11] Um, but Hey, if you see that, you know, these people are successful, let’s look deeper into that background and find more candidates like that. So it’s a team effort when you’re building stuff. Uh, programs. Does that make sense?

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Jason: It does. And it’s interesting that you say that about the trainer side, because I know one of my first leadership roles where I was training, I was recruiting and then training and then managing and running this small team, uh, under 20 people with some telemarketing.

[00:17:44] Boss would constantly come to me and say, well, how much time should we give people? Like when do you know if they’re going to be a good fit or not? And I’m like buy lunch on the first day, right? In training, are they asking questions? Are they engaged? I’ve literally had people who are just tired and they’re kind of sleepy.

[00:18:01] And, and I’m like, if you’re not excited in the first half of your first day, at the most exciting point before things get real and difficult and challenge. Um, then it’s not going to work.

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Michael: So I love the call center business. I love people. Um, I like meeting new people, right? So there’s a couple of things.

[00:18:19] Like if I’m ever, you know, pre COVID I’m in one of our centers, I love to go on the training room and I can identify immediately. Who’s going to be successful or not. And here’s a tip to everybody. I walk in and I say, Hey, I tell them who I am. And then I say, I’m gonna go around the room and point to you and just do me a favor.

[00:18:37] And. Tell me your name, your last position, and something interesting that I would remember you by, you know, so I, you know that, let me start it off. So, Hey, I’m Mike Romano. Um, I won’t say my last company, but something interesting about me is, you know, I got a full parrot that talks, boom. Right. I go around the room and I can tell you immediately who’s going to make it or not just by the way they pop up.

[00:19:05] They say their name and something about. You can tell who’s not gonna make it because they’ll go on. Got my name’s Mike. Uh, my last company was, um, um, they’re not gonna make it because the sales that first 30 seconds is the most important thing that intro, right? Do you have life where you’re monotone, you have voice inflection, right?

[00:19:25] So, you know, I always pulled a trainer around her after the class and go, Hey, if I can see that 30 seconds into this, why are we going to go two weeks with this person? Which we know is not going to make it because if they’re doing outbound calling, they’re never going to get past the gate. Right. So, you know, when’s the right time to pull the plug.

[00:19:41] You’re exactly right. There’s no, it’s, it’s in training when we graduate someone, that’s a whole different story. You know, if, if we graduate someone that has gone through all the processes, sometimes, you know, there’s components that happen in terms of technology or other things. So we got to give them some.

[00:20:03] Right. What’s the ramp to proficiency. What does that look like? So, you know, I’m a big proponent of early on in training if they’re not going to make it, but once we graduate, there’s a ramp to proficiency and you’ve got to really, it’s now the company, the managers, the team’s responsibility to make them successful.

[00:20:26] And another tip I’d say to everybody is this right sales leaders, can you sell. Right. Are you able to get on that call and save the sale? Because you know, sales is all about positive energy. So, you know, you want to be a good sales leader. Don’t let your team, the people you hire, fail on the phone and then come back and tell them all the things they did wrong side Jack, get on the call, save it and show them.

[00:20:51] Right. So many times we talked about, you know, oh, they didn’t do this. Right. They didn’t. No, it’s your job to teach someone. That’s why we have sales coaches. That’s why we have sales trainers. And so with me, it’s not about, you know, let’s cut them right away. It’s right. Role for the right person. They went through everything.

[00:21:10] Now it’s up to the leadership to make them. That’s how I looked at it.

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Jason: Yeah. And I agree that especially if someone’s made it through training and if you built a training with a go-no-go process, not just on personality, but like actually some skills testing and things like that. Once they graduate from this.

[00:21:29] If for some reason you have to let them go. That means, and the way I was taught, it was means you failed as an organization. Either you hired the wrong person or you didn’t support them fully. Right? Yeah. Looking at it in that attitude now that does not a hundred percent true. And it’s not always your fault, but that’s the best approach I found.

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Michael: Yep. But you also have to look at the culture, the compensation, you know, you have the right compensation model. Do you have the right culture? Is it a positive culture? You know, is it, is it a teamwork culture? We high-five and people, when we go to sale or we’re ringing a bell, you know, I mean, what are we doing?

[00:22:05] You know, to make people want to come to work everyday and be happy. And, and so that’s a lot to do with it too, you know, driving a happy culture in sales. You know, I, I look at sales is somewhat to sports, you know, You’re out there. And, um, I don’t know if anyone’s seen the Baltimore game this week, but you know, for three quarters, Lamar Jackson looked like he couldn’t do anything.

[00:22:27] Right. You know, and he fumbled in the game, looked over and, you know, he never blinked and I never thought, you know, he doesn’t have it in him. And he came out and he just had a monster fourth quarter. Right. He doesn’t let the things or the distraction happen and things he has to happen in sales, you know, three or four calls people hang up.

[00:22:47] You know, Laura of averages tells you that, Hey, no matter what, you know, it takes four calls to make oneself. Three of those could go really bad. It comes to fourth one. So that’s where coaching and motivation and culture.

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Jason: Yeah, because sales is a tough mental thing. And just to revisit what you said about asking people in the training room to stand up and talk about it.

[00:23:08] That was a lesson I learned from a friend a long time ago, even before I got into sales management. And I’ve done that forever with group interviews where people come in, it’s a group and then one at a time having them stand because you see that and you know, who’s got. You know, and if you get more of those people, even before it starts, this is a room full of strangers.

[00:23:30] They don’t even sure. They’re not even sure why they were there yet. Cause they’re in the interview process and the people who are willing to get up and, you know, have some confidence in themselves like that’s who you want.

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Michael: A lot of B2B interviews we used to do in the past was in one day. And, um, you put two desks in a big room, one on the right one on the left and you call them up one by one and you have that interview.

[00:23:50] And I would be the interview and I talk really loud and ask them to talk really loud because you want to see, I mean, if you’re doing B2B sales, you have to get past the gatekeeper. You do that. Um, but the other tip that I give people all the time, if you want to be really great, Um, and if I go on a tangent, just bring me back in, I do a lot of training and talking to people and talking to our, you know, our agents and potential agents and especially on the B2B side, right?

[00:24:14] How do you get past a gatekeeper? Right. And there’s a tip. I tell everybody, and it may sound crazy again, but, um, this goes back to my early days of learning, how to sell. You have to learn how to talk to people. So when you’re in training, knowing that you’re going to start doing outbound calls, Every time you can interact with someone, you don’t know, ask them a question.

[00:24:38] Hence, during the grocery store, you’re checking out, right? You got to pay it at $60. You go to the person who’s checking you out and go $60. The average cost of when someone checks out, like, what does the average person spend a day? And they look at you sideways, like you’re crazy. Right? And then they tell you the number and you look to the person behind you and go, is that about what you spend in.

[00:25:01] Right. You’re having conversations with people you’ve never met before. Some of them are going to be really rude to you and some are going to be nice. That’s how you train to get past the gatekeeper. Right? When you’re in the elevator, the most uncomfortable conversation you can ever have with someone is turn to them and go, where are you from?

[00:25:16] They don’t know. I did that last week. You know, they didn’t know what to do. They looked at me again, like I was crazy. Where are you from a sound from south Florida? I’m not used to this place. And then you have a conversation, right? So. What this goes back to what I always say, leadership, right? When you’re building these programs, are you putting these things in place?

[00:25:34] And it goes back to what you said about script. We can write all these things down, but we have to teach the individual how to sell. And, and so going back to what I said earlier about when you work with a company like mine, is that we take all the learnings from the sales playbooks that we have. We take that to the first time outsourcer.

[00:25:55] Who’s never done this before and say, Hey, you’ve been living in a bubble for the last 20 years. We get it. And that bubble has been very successful, but it’s a different landscape out there. Right. The climate has changed and let us help you. And we take all the knowledge that you have to make your program successful, but we take a couple of bits from these pride programs that are really successful to make your us just a little better.

[00:26:17] And that’s why outsourcing, uh, with companies like ours, most of the time is successful. If you do it with the right people, with the right resources, using data.

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Jason: Got it. I love that a mini masterclass on the hiring, the recruiting, the training, kind of what you’re looking for, both for managers, leaders who can take that.

[00:26:37] And then anyone who’s listening to this that’s in sales and thinking, you know, am I, am I on the right track or not? You know, hopefully that helps. One of the things I can’t stop thinking about though, is organizations where they just don’t have. Their sales process built, maybe even the stuff that you’re talking about, where it’s like, here’s the kind of people you want to hire.

[00:26:59] Here’s what you’re looking for. Here’s the right people you want on the bus so we can make sure the bus gets to its destination. And I’m just thinking of organizations. They’re nowhere they’re in their bubble, like you said, and then they want to outsource, or they’re thinking about it. Is there a point at which you actually tell an organization?

[00:27:17] No. You can’t help them as an outsource partner because they don’t have anything in place or do you work with them to put those things in place and build the machine with them so that you can then outsource?

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Michael: Well, I’m in sales. So there is no, no, there’s never a no. Okay. There’s there’s, there’s nothing.

[00:27:36] We can’t. All right, you can build things. So I go back to tools and technology, and I’m blessed to work with an organization that has so many tools and so many technologies that can help the company that you just spoke about. Right. Um, the challenge is the ego that comes along with that. Hey, you know, we’re a multi-billion dollar company and we’re truly successful.

[00:28:01] We don’t need you. Okay. But I can make it. You know, we have an organization that uses tools and technologies that can help you get better. So once the egos get in check, it’s pretty much, you know, we work together and collaborate the most successful programs that I’m a part of is collaboration, right?

[00:28:19] It’s our company and your company working together to build a better product, to get a better end result. And when you collaborate, you get great results. Um, We have a lot of what we call champion challengers, right? So companies that use multiple outsourcers, we have champion challenges. We share the data, we see the success, but then you take what’s successful and you share that with other people and say, Hey, this is what’s working for us.

[00:28:48] This is what we see. Because at the end of the day, if the company we’re working for is more successful, We grow right? If the company is not sharing the data or what’s not working and they’re letting us fail, that doesn’t make sense either. So, you know, it’s really about collaboration with people and leaving their egos in check.

[00:29:11] And, and most of the clients that I work with, we’re a hundred percent transparent. We build programs for the end result, which is my job is to lower your cost per acquisition. Increase revenue per transaction and bring a higher lifetime value to your customer. If I do all those three things, I did my job.

[00:29:41]

Jason: I’m pausing here because I’m thinking about that and that model, which I think is great. And I think about that ego part that you mentioned, which is when they think they know everything and that gets in the way. And obviously that’s a barrier in any sales process when somebody thinks they know better or they’re not open to any solution consumer business-wise, then that’s a, that’s a tough nut to crack.

[00:30:03] I’m also thinking the other end of the spectrum, where a company says, we just want you to do it all. We don’t care what you do. Here’s the result that we want. Take it right. Abdicating the process or sales or client acquisition revenue to an outsource partner, because they don’t have an idea of how to do it internally.

[00:30:26] They’re not successful. And I’ve seen companies do that, where they hire somebody who promises the world. But they don’t give them anything because they don’t even know how to sell their own product successfully at scale. And then of course, outsource partners fail. Where do you see that happen? Or you just know to avoid those kinds of people who are just like, please raise my

[00:30:48]

Michael: baby.

[00:30:48] I live by, uh, information not shared is worth this information right in. Give us something to go off of. You know, if you’re just going to give us a piece of paper and go here, you know, sign the contract, they go build it and be successful. We’re not going to know the nuances that the challenge, you know, the things that worked and didn’t work, it’s going to set us all back.

[00:31:13] So I go back to collaboration, you know, we, we have to collaborate together to build something. And if, again, if we’re just seeing as some outsourced. That’s not who we are, we’re an extension of your business. Um, so when, when you hire us and we work with you, you know, where, where, where we are, you’re inside, outside sales team, we’re just an extension of you under a different roof.

[00:31:42] Um, so, you know, again, do I, I don’t walk away because I feel like. Work with almost any individual and we can build something together. That’s the main reason why you’ve reached out to me. Right. So, you know, it’s, it’s very rare that someone doesn’t say, Hey, come on in and let’s talk and then goes, okay, we got nothing for you.

[00:32:01] It’s how can, you know, let me solve your problems. Um, and, and these days, you know, we’re all in the same kind of bubble, right? That things are changing rapidly, but what’s not changing. Is that the lifeline of every business is their sales team. Um, you know, you, you need new customers, you need to maintain your customers.

[00:32:26] So you need new sales and you need retention. And that hasn’t changed in hundreds of years.

[00:32:34]

Jason: Makes sense. I love it. Um, and I agree, and I, and I’ve seen. Some outsource partner, especially business development, B2B, or they’re like, we’ll just do it for you. And, uh, that doesn’t work for most organizations because if they don’t know how to make it successful, the partner,

[00:32:51]

Michael: I think I would say is, you know, and I’ll be careful the way that I say this, but, um, you know, I, I’m not the price war guy.

[00:32:59] I’m not the cheapest, you know, you’re with me and sales, you know, the cheapest usually is the one. Right because it’s, you’re building a sales team, you know, it’s all about compensation and the more you sell, the more you make. Right. So it’s kind of like an oxymoron. I can’t be the cheapest. It’d be the best.

[00:33:17] Right. So, you know, when companies are outsourcing and you’re dealing with some procurement procurement people or other people in individual and they’re, Hey, you know, you’re 20% more. Okay. Well, are we looking at, you know, I can do more with less, right? So what most companies can do with a hundred agents, I can do.

[00:33:33] And drive more revenue per transaction. Right? So again, the mindset of what we’re talking about earlier is that, Hey, there’s an education on both sides when you’re doing sales. It’s not about average handle time. It’s not about, you know, what are the butts in the seats? It’s not about hourly wages. It’s about revenue per transaction.

[00:33:52] You know, it’s about closing numbers. It’s about upselling and cross. Right. It’s a completely different component than a care model. So, you know, again, what you said earlier is like, when you’re having these meetings, you have to make sure the people you’re talking to understand the same concept. You know, I’ve never been with someone who says again, I go back to sports in the free agent market, you know, we want the cheapest guy and he’s gonna be.

[00:34:15] They’ll just doesn’t work that way. Right. They’re looking at, if you have pictures, you’re looking at innings, pitched an era. If you’re looking at a home run bomber, it’s, you know, how many home runs they’re going to have. Right. So, you know, we, we don’t pay that guy the lowest, right. We pay them the highest for performance.

[00:34:31] Right. So again, when you’re outsourcing, you have to really look at what you’re getting. Right. And if you’re getting the cheapest in sales, it’s probably the worst.

[00:34:41]

Jason: So let’s shift a little bit, obviously. Your organization, global workforce, global sales team, different different parts of the world. Everybody was affected by the pandemic.

[00:34:54] What w what was one of the biggest surprises and successes that you saw, especially as a sales leader, like from your internal,

[00:35:05]

Michael: let me start with, yeah, right. Um, I work with some of the smartest individuals you’re ever to. And I don’t say that just because that worked for the company, but we had a work from home workforce before the pandemic.

[00:35:21] We had everything in place doing work from home. So there wasn’t a big shift for us because we had the infrastructure. So it was really just a matter of pivoting, right. People and equipment. But we had the infrastructure in place to do work from home. So we were already light years ahead of most organizations.

[00:35:40] Um, the challenge. Um, on a global scale, is, is bandwidth making sure that you have the right bandwidth in your home. And as you go into some of these countries that don’t have the infrastructure that maybe the us has, right? So it’s bandwidth issues. It’s again, in my world and sales, do you have a room that you could get on a conversation with?

[00:36:04] That’s not background noise, that two kids and a dog or running into the room, you know, Again, we’re all, we’re all working from home school, from home, you know, is there a room that you can dedicate yourself? So we spent a lot of time going back to what I said earlier when you’re recruiting to make sure that to have a dedicated workspace that would have a good broadband connection, that they have the right tools and technology, um, because there’s nothing worse than a bad connection when you’re trying to close.

[00:36:34] Right. And then that becomes the excuse, you know? Oh, got disconnected. When we all know disconnected rings, they hung up on you. And so, you know, um, for us, it wasn’t a big pivot because we had the infrastructure.

[00:36:50]

Jason: What do you see as the near future? Let’s say, you know, we’re recording this October 20, 21, the rest of this year, next year in two aspects, especially you being a very experienced salesperson. So the two parts that I’m really curious about is what’s the near future and what’s upcoming for. Call centers and either technology or, you know, dealing with the personnel issues, hiring issues.

[00:37:17] And then the second part is what do you see changing in the landscape for buyers, for customers, whether it’s B2B or B2C and what they’re looking for and what you see as how your organization especially is going to adapt to that instead of like, just doing it the same way all the time.

[00:37:37]

Michael: You know, we’re, we’re seeing a shift.

[00:37:41] In, in more emerging brands, direct to consumers. Brands has retail starts to fizzle out, you know, malls are physically out and, you know, the brick and mortar retail stores are fizzling out. You’re seeing more direct to consumers. So you’re seeing more opportunities for businesses who have never really outsourced before use call center for sales and things like that.

[00:37:59] So I see that on the horizon, I see video in life, selling on the horizon as a big aspect as we move into the next 24. Especially with the younger generation. Um, but what I see more often than not is companies who have never done this before and now are starting to realize that they’ve learned going back to what I said earlier that, Hey, I may have a captive center.

[00:38:23] I may have two captive standards, but. It’s really about protection of your business and diversifying where your centers are and where your people are. Because especially in the global landscape, we’ve learned that things can happen really quick. So I think what you’re seeing now is more companies trying to understand that, Hey, you know, I may be captive.

[00:38:50] This may not be the way to go into the future. The other thing is. You talked about right now, the challenge is going to be people, you know, um, there’s a, there’s a, um, wage rate that keeps rising and rising and rising, and I’m not going to get political with inflation and things like that. But companies really have to look at how they could increase.

[00:39:20] Revenue per transaction on cross selling and upselling and retention and using all the tools and technologies to keep customers because things like inflation in things start to happen. People look at their bills, you know, as gas prices go up and things go up with heating oil. You start to look at an and that’s where you’ve got to have a really good retention.

[00:39:45] You know, you better have a good customer acquisition team, especially on the B2B side now, because as more B2B companies move to the digital transformation of their business, right now you have a landscape of different opportunities where it may have been someone knocking at your door. Right now you’re proactively seeking something and you’re going to talk to two or three individuals.

[00:40:08] So video again is prevalent. You know, face-to-face selling on B2B using video. So video on direct on consumer and B2B. I would say this, right? And I’ll, it’s like the fifth time I’ve said it, Jason having the right person in the right role, right. Put a lot of more effort into recruiting and training and finding that right person because what you don’t want to do.

[00:40:33] And you’re going to see in a tight labor market is when an opportunity comes along that someone can make three, four or $5 an hour. They leave, take care of your employees. Now more than ever. And so it, my organization, we have so many countries that have one great places to work and make sure that you will become a great place to work, have diversity in the workforce and hire good people and keep them because the companies who are going to succeed over the next 24 months are the ones that have a diverse workforce, where the sales culture is great.

[00:41:10] And the people are happy because if they’re not. They just need to walk down the street and you don’t have a job. It’s a, it’s an employee’s market right now. Right. So, you know, that’s where I see the next 24 months take care of the people who take care.

[00:41:26]

Jason: And I absolutely love the intersection of what you said throughout that too, which is take care of the people, right?

[00:41:32] Hire the right people, take care of them, make it a great place to work, make it a place where people are going to want to come work so you can win that decision and keep your employees. While at the same time, figuring out ways to retain people who might want to cancel or leave as a customer, uh, upsell, cross sell, improve that lifetime value of a client in that way.

[00:41:57] It’s fun. The best place to work and being able to compensate people on performance-based and keeping people happy. And it just loops. I see what I’m sure you see sometimes, which is organizations say they’re not good at the sales part, the upsell, the cross sell the retention they could be, but they’re just not, they’re focused on the new client acquisition, not everything else.

[00:42:17] And so what happens is they feel like they don’t have the mind to pay more because they’re hemorrhaging or bleeding out the other side. And then it’s just this vicious. And what you’re saying is two parts is solved. Both of those, right? You solve one, you solve the other, you solve them both at the same time, improve both at the same time.

[00:42:34] And then it’s just,

[00:42:36]

Michael: there’s so many companies that I help, um, help them understand what their cost per acquisition. Right. And in this day and age, you know, what’s your cost per acquisition all in while they have an all-in number. I know that’s radio TV, that’s paid search non-brand search SEO, email, SMS, social media.

[00:42:58] I can give you 11 different marketing methodologies without blinking an eye. Tell me the cost per cost per acquisition of each one of those methodologies. Right? Let me help you break that down and understand where your marketing dollars are being spent correctly. Or is there attribution, you know, okay.

[00:43:16] Radio, TV, paid search, social media, are you tracking attribution? You know? And so again, you know, that’s where that Eagle sitting comes in. Right? I’ve been doing this long enough to know that there is no perfect science when it comes to attribution, but you’ll hear a lot of people say, we’ve got to keep doing radio.

[00:43:37] We got to keep doing TV. Okay. And is it working well? Yeah. They’re not doing attribution because they’re not using data and analytics. Right. And then, well, retention, you know, they’ll just give the store away on retention, you know, oh one month free or this and that, but they don’t know. They’re not listening to the reasons why of, I love your product, but I may be moving.

[00:44:01] I love your product, but I’m still waiting for it. Right. That’s where voice analytics come in and QA teams. Right. So, you know, again, Look at the whole customer journey from the time they landed on your wet property to that conversation of three months from now, when you’re trying to win them back, something happened in between that 90 days.

[00:44:24] Let’s find out together why they’re no longer want to be your customer. Um, there’s many different reasons, but we’re going into a, uh, uh, a time now where if you’re not using data and analytics and digital transformation, To make you better, faster, quicker, cheaper. You’re going to be left behind. Right. And that’s where companies like mine help you.

[00:44:48]

Jason: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more because there was a time in the past where only the big players might have the resources to pull those things off. And then there was enough share for everyone else. Now with the technology cloud-based scalable systems, companies like yours that are willing to support.

[00:45:07] Anybody has the chance and the ability to scale and do really well and own a very large market share based on data analytics, tools, technology, resources, hiring the right people. And, uh, I agree. I mean, if you’re still hoping that things are going to work, it’s not, well, my goal, I appreciate you being on here.

[00:45:27] So. I thought we were going to talk way more about other topics. And I loved where this went is so fun. Um, I know that if people want to find out more information, they can go to teleperformance.com. I know there’s a ton of resources on there. People want to check that out. I know that you’re active on LinkedIn so they can find you on there.

[00:45:45] Any other cool things, any other valuable things, any other ways that you want people to interact with you, or find out more about what you all doing?

[00:45:54]

Michael: I do a podcast with Stephanie Miller. You could find that on the website. Um, we shoot the breeze of sales. Love to have you come on there one day to, with us and shoot it.

[00:46:06] I’m on LinkedIn. I go to some trade shows and conventions, but you know, just getting back into that mix right now, um, plan on being more active in 2022 as things open up. But I really enjoyed my time today with you. And, um, hopefully, you know, everyone’s staying healthy and getting out there and, you know, it’s, um, I love sales.

[00:46:29] I can talk about it.

[00:46:31]

Jason: Well, we’ll definitely have to do a second part. Cause I feel like there’s still a bunch that we both wanted to talk about and I know that’ll be fun and I’m excited to see you soon at some conferences. And, uh, I appreciate all the value shared, Michael. Thanks for, uh, thanks for coming on the show and, uh, being here with us today